Tom Hardy and I settle in to talk over lunch in the media room of the actor's temporary home in Calgary, where he's shooting The Revenant, the latest film from the Oscar-winning director Alejandro González Iñárritu, alongside Leonardo DiCaprio. The 37-year-old London native has just shown me the movie posters for this month's Mad Max: Fury Road, which are leaning against the walls of the study upstairs. It's been 30 years since George Miller's last installment of the iconic postapocalyptic film series, and Hardy seems more like a Comic-Con fan than like the badass titular character, talking excitedly about stunts and explosions and choreographed car chases and action figures. Especially action figures. Hardy, it turns out, has already had two characters he's portrayed (Bane from The Dark Knight Rises and Shinzon from 2002's Star Trek: Nemesis) immortalized in plastic and admits to geeking out on toys just as much as—if not more than—his 7-year-old son, Louis.
Do you find yourself playing with your son's toys more than he does?
The best thing about being a dad is being able to go to the toy store with my boy and try to get him to buy the things that I want. Coerce him slowly.
What does fatherhood mean to you?
There's such a blissful sense of otherness that I can't remember what it was like to not have children. I used to think a lot about myself. I still do, I guess. I mean, I have the capacity to indulge in myself. My primary relationship was with myself, and that was interrupted irrevocably when I found out I was going to be a father. It cut out so much shit from my head. There was the idea that in order to look after someone else, you must first truly look after yourself. I need to be fit and good to go and get shit done. I was healthy and already had a lot of shit behind me—rehab and all that—but I didn't have an anchor. A child is an anchor. And it gets heavy. Is your son going to be a reflection of you? Fear of becoming your father. And then the fear of not becoming your father. All of these conversations which were nice to think about and hypothesize about before are now immediately connected. . . .You can't un-have a son.
You can't un-have a father, either.
All of that stuff with your father falls by the wayside as you realize how inept you can be as a father yourself. And you can't really beat on your parents. I used to have a lot of hang-ups—legitimate hang-ups—about my parents. But then I dialed back the clock. My old man must have been 28 or 30 when he had me—he must have been fucking terrified. You only have yourself to measure from. A lot of stuff I had to forgive. I wasn't going to move forward in a healthy manner if I didn't start letting go of some pretty major stuff—stuff which held me back while I was young. Serves no purpose any longer now that I'm a father myself. It's impossible to be perfect, you discover. I look back at the flaws of my father and the things that made me say, "I won't do this, and I won't do that. I'm going to do this differently." There's no difference between my dad and me as a dad. I'm becoming my father in some ways, and I'm grateful for that. By no means am I a great father, but fatherhood has helped me focus on what I need to do to become a better man.
What does it mean to become a better man? A great man?
A great man is largely forgotten by the public. He doesn't stand on top of a mountain waving a flag saying, "Look at me—I'm a great man." A great man often disappears into the ether. Hardly anyone notices that he was even there, apart from his family and close friends. He was reliable. He showed up. He was there. He was useful where he could be. He made mistakes. Tried to make better of those mistakes. Doesn't mean you have to cure cancer or understand the theory of relativity. It's not necessarily as rock-and-roll or as cool as you might think. Part of being a great man is accepting that. To dare to be average and normal is actually a pathway to becoming a great man. To have more humility. To accept responsibility more. To just get on with what's in front of your face. And to leave no fucking indelible mark of your ever being here, apart from the fact that you were there for your family to the best of your ability. It's not an easy task. I'll probably fuck it up.
But it's hard to be "average" and "normal" when you have a . . .
A job that says "Look at me! Aren't I great? Or special?" I'm not worrying about my diamond-studded shoes or, you know, my privileges. That would be ridiculous. I got lucky. I love what I do. I'm going to fucking ride it until the wheels fall off. Do what you love doing, do it well—everything should fit into place. And if you happen to make money doing it, lucky cunt. But there's no difference between a $5 performance and a $50 million performance to me. You know what I mean? My work wouldn't change depending on how much money you gave me. I have no desire to be a star. I'd like to be normal. 'Cause I'm already nuts anyway. I don't fucking need to be any further crazy.
How nuts are you, though?
I'm not nuts at all.
But a number of stories about you are built on the idea that here's this guy who is a terrific actor but is a mystery, and ask the question "Is there something off?" Does that surprise you?
No. Mystery is very healthy in this business anyway. Why wouldn't I capitalize on mystery? If you look at the old movie stars, you didn't know anything about them. It allowed them to transform and shape-shift into different characters. It was easier to believe what somebody is if you don't know anything about them. If you had a dossier on me, telling you about who I am, where I've been, what I've done, for years, it makes it harder to maintain the ability to transform. I want to leave as little dossier around as possible. So, if there's a mystery in any way, great. That's great. For obvious reasons, isn't it? 'Cause you can do business with that. See, myths, usually asinine, circulate about people, normally by people who don't know them.
And ultimately, for me, if there's an element of danger or madness or insanity, I'll let people think that. That's fine. Because I have played to those strengths with Bronson [in Bronson] or Bane [in The Dark Knight Rises] or Forrest [in Lawless], whatever . . . there's elements of [Warrior's] Tommy Conlon violence and darkness that goes on in there. I've got a history of nonjudgmental complete recklessness. So, it's not that I can't draw from sources. And I would be foolish not to in my work. It's gotta go somewhere. But it's quite an open book. And I'm not really putting it on, either. Certainly not to a huge level. There's things I haven't really experienced, so I'm just acting. But elements of danger? Yeah, there's a truth to that. There's an absolute truth to that. But am I dangerous? Absolutely not. Am I insane? Absolutely not. But do I go to places which are scary and uncomfortable for some people? Yes.
What about you—what scares you? How much are you driven by fear?
As a child, I always had it, and then growing into an adult, I have to deal with it. And you have the inevitability of reckless drinking behaviors and whatnot, a phase of fear management.
So I've gone from a place where I didn't understand fear and was just full of it to a place where fear is pretty much with every meal, with everything I do—it's always there. It's an old friend. Part of it is like the petrol that I have, the energy that I have. A cognitive therapist would probably say, "Feel the fucking feeling, wait, identify the trigger, and rewrite the script on the reaction. But do not react." Contain, or whatever. You sit with it. The fear is like salt—it's in everything, for me. So my relationship with fear has come along quite considerably since the early days of recognizing that I was a fearful person.
As you get older and you get into awkward social interactions with girls and guys, you try to fit in and become socially inept. Drinking came in. Totally numbed that out. That was great. But of course, the tolerance to that gets very high. So, blackouts, and behavior was fueled by rage, which is a layer of fear, until the knockout effect is you can't really continue like this anymore. So the drinking stopped.
I've been sober longer than I'd been drinking now. It's a nice place to be. But I don't turn my back on it—it doesn't mean for one minute it can't bite me in the ass. It's part of "the story" that I used to be Bad Boy Tom—because that's not true either. Just bog-standard drunk—got lucky, got recovery, stuck to it like fucking glue. Really grateful. I don't really talk about it that much—there's no need to. I've been through things like divorce, court cases, and whatnot, all really sort of homely stuff. It's not very glamorous.
And the fear has always been there. Fear has allowed me to burst down certain doors. There's a certain—not bravery but a sort of Dutch courage that comes from being so frightened or alarmed that you just need to speak up. That can also be put down as crazy and unpredictable, but it's not. It's sitting on a keg of utter fear to the point where you're like, "Well, I'll fucking do it. Give it to me. Let's just fucking do something, 'cause I cannot sit with this anymore." It's an energy that I can't contain.
When you see a warrior attacking, or you see someone being attacked, and you take a close-up just of their eyes and look, it's just fear that you see from both sides. It's an overwhelming adrenal, alarming fear.
I certainly have a relationship with it. And I'm also fucking grateful for it, to be fair. It's a gift. At least I know my enemy.
If you were to look back at yourself as a youth, how would you describe what you saw?
There's nothing exceptional or unusual or particularly painful, even remotely to do with underprivileged or impoverished. There's no reason for this boy to be considered a bad boy. There's nothing remotely dangerous about that kid. Nothing. But there's enough fear in that kid there that in his life, he will have a relationship with it. He can really go the wrong way and do something rather pedestrian, an act of crime or drunken whatever. He can be the guy that gets life in prison for doing something really mundane—really, really stupid. And there's no reason why he didn't drive a car over three toddlers or drive through a shopwindow. There's no reason why that couldn't happen. That's not Carlito's Way bad, but it isn't good, is it? It's not good at all. But it's reckless, it's stupid. Or he could join the army. There's no reason why he couldn't.
Did you ever consider enlisting?
Yeah. I've got a lot of friends in the military. I have a problem with killing—otherwise I'd be doing it. I have a fundamental issue with killing something. I can't do it. I've tried, trust me. It's not easy.
I don't like hunting. I don't see the point in killing another being. This is the paradox of the double bind, right? 'Cause I love the military. It would be a gross act of fucking negligence, spiritually, to go and get on a plane and find myself in a place where I took somebody's life.
How spiritual are you?
More and more so every day. I think it's important. I think it's necessary as you get older as a bloke. I've spent most of my life myopic and just looking up my own ass, really. I'm an old man. And I like old-man things. I just like to think a bit more, take my time, consider my options, enjoy life. Be present. I can't go running down and fucking cows anymore, man. You know the joke: The guy goes, "Let's run down there and fuck one of those cows." And the other guy goes, "No, let's walk down and fuck them all." And just take the cows out of the equation, 'cause I don't think it's cool to fuck cows anyway. [Laughs]
So do you take your time and consider your options before, say, getting that new tattoo, or are you just sort of like, "Fuck it, let's do this"?
A bit of both. On this new one, it's a wolf and a raven and a sacred heart. So my heart is on my sleeve, and the raven and the wolf are very important animals to me.
Why's that?
From what I've picked up, a shaman's bird is a raven—it's a transformative bird that can shape-shift into other characters. And in the wild, when ravens and wolves hunt together, the raven is the drone—it's the eye in the sky, and it can spot the prey, and it calls and it mimics other birds, so that the animal doesn't know what's there. It could be a blue jay—it changes its voice, and it throws it. So it's nature's observer. And obviously wolves are part of the dog family, to a degree. There's a lot of stuff to do with dogs in my life.
Have you always loved dogs?
Do you believe in serendipity? I do. No such thing as coincidence. So here's my dog, right? [Displays a photo on his phone] His name was Mad Max when I got him. Like the first dog I ever had. Anyway, I fell in love with Max's mom, Cass, when I was 16. My friend had her. And I was like, "If she ever has puppies, please can I have a dog?" He was like, "Yeah, sure." And then my friend disappeared, and I never saw him again. But I went to visit his mom, see how she was and say hello. And she said, "Oh, we've got something for you here." And I open up the door, and there was Mad Max. And I was like, "I don't like that name." 'Cause he's not mad, he's just misunderstood. I called him Moose, as a nickname. And my nickname was something else back then. I think it was Weasel at the time. 'Cause I was a little shit.
Had you seen the Mad Max films?
I knew who Mad Max was. I just knew it was Mel Gibson, and I knew there was leather. And I knew he had a shotgun and he had an Interceptor, and I knew he had a dog. That was really cool.
Did you discuss the role with Mel?
I met Mel. I needed to meet Mel purely from a young man's perspective. I want to touch base with the previous Max and just say hello. And is it okay? Because I'm taking on Max, I have to meet Max. It's awkward. "You're Mad Max. I'm Tommy Hardy, and I'm playing him."
How did that meeting go?
He was bored with me. He said, "All right, buddy, good luck with that." Bless him. I made him a bracelet. And then we talked for a couple of hours about all kinds of stuff. I left, and that was that. And then he called up my agent and said, "I think you found someone that's crazier than I am."
I read that Charlize Theron, your costar, was scared of you. Do you think your intensity can be off-putting?
Possibly, but I don't think so with Charlize. I don't think that was the case. Because Charlize is an intense woman. Very intense, actually. In a good way. I mean, look at her in Monster—that's not somebody walking in the park. You don't just summon up that kind of authenticity without bringing a tremendous wealth of artistic ability. She's a very serious actor. So I don't see why she would ever be intimidated by me or in any way feel frightened. I think that was more . . . bollocks.
What was it like making Mad Max: Fury Road?
George Miller presented us with a 300-page comic book with every single frame of the movie drawn out. This is a man who, if it could've been animatronics, it would've been easier for him. If he could've painted us and we didn't have to have opinions, it would've been a lot easier for the poor guy. Because this is a man who can see it. And we had to transmute it, but he had to communicate what he wanted. And he had pictures, and the actors were a bunch of investigators. We just asked questions all the time. We want to know how to please or how to tell a better story or, you know, "What am I saying this for?" The motivation. And the irritant to a genius. What he has created is breathtakingly fucking intricate, and he's fully articulated the most amazing colorful orchestration of carnage. It's a masterpiece. And that far outweighs any fear of playing, taking on Mel's role. Mad Max is, like, the coolest superhero that a boy could get. 'Cause there's no cape, there's no rubber suit. There's no flying. Nothing really hurts Batman or Superman. Everything hurts in Mad Max. Remember Indiana Jones when he hated snakes? He was scared. Those kind of heroes, they excite me because they are ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. They are fallible. And when they jump, they're not sure if they're going to make it to the other side. And then it doesn't stop. I mean, Mad Max is really just an old man trying to go home.
This is the biggest-budget film you've had to promote. You don't seem to like doing press.
I'm wary of press. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I have to be very careful, because ultimately you're doing press to promote films, not a sense of self. Who I am makes no difference. To quote Bane: "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask." It doesn't matter where I came from or what I do. All you need to know is that I don't commit crimes, and I don't kill children. I'm actually quite safe, and I have a family that I care about, and I'm open—I'm open to having a conversation about pretty much anything in the world, and I want to go down to the shop and get my milk, come back, be part of the human race. That's it. I just want to be any normal man with my family. I'm Tommy. I'll never really not be Tommy—I hope. I'd be a bit pissed off if that changed. You can do what you love doing and still not turn into . . .
A douchebag?
Yeah, if I'm a douchebag, I'd rather be a douchebag despite the fact that I'm a celebrity. I don't want to be seen, you know? I like the shadows. I like to go and do my thing and disappear. But when it's like, "You are responsible for doing this," I'm like, "I think you might have the wrong person." I just happen to be part of the team. I may be fronting this particular endeavor, but I'm not worth looking at, for crying out loud. What the fuck does that have to do with the price of cabbages?! I'm not an ambassador, I don't want to be on the front cover of the magazine. Not because I'm not grateful. I just don't feel I belong there.
Do you have any regrets?
Yes and no. I mean, in the big picture, of course you have regrets, but the reality is that regrets and mistakes are the touchstone of spiritual growth. You're the sum of all your experiences. You wouldn't be you if you had no regrets. It's like someone saying "Would you opt to be a stick of celery?" is just as logical as saying "Do you have any regrets?" If you were to go back and wipe out your regrets and do things better, you wouldn't be who you are today. So it's like that saying: "If I had tits, I'd be a woman." You might as well say "Would you rather be a stick of celery?" Because you've got more chance of becoming a woman than you have of getting rid of your regrets.
Where did you learn to act?
Have you seen that movie Whiplash? I went to a school like that. You know, a drama school very similar to that. And the guy that trained me, they based Hannibal Lecter on him. His pursuit was just to fucking destroy us. He wanted us to achieve excellence, and I think all of us failed to impress him, to be fair. But that's where I came from, and it was always laced with danger, that place. Which was always the attitude: This isn't about money or fame, this is just about doing what it says on the tin.
The tin?
On the lid of the box. If you do not do what it says on the tin, why the fuck are we carrying you? You're a waste of time. You fundamentally lack the basic knowledge required to formulate a simple opinion on this subject. You might as well fuck off.
Back to your school. It sounds intense. I understand Michael Fassbender was also there.
Mikey Fassbender, he was in the third year, and he was, like, the shit. And he was in this wheelchair, 'cause his character is in a wheelchair. We had, like, half an hour for lunch, a half an hour to feed the whole school. We had this little canteen, Barbara's canteen, and Mikey would be holding up the whole queue 'cause he wouldn't get out of his fucking wheelchair. That's the kind of school I went to. "Mikey, man, just stand the fuck up and order your lunch so we can go back to school, so we don't get thrown out at the end of the week." And he'd be like, "Fuck you!" It was awesome. I've got mad respect for him. I'd love to go up against him on stage.
Like a battle royal? I actually wanted to talk to you about masculinity.
I'm the last person you need to ask about masculinity. I'm as masculine as an eggplant.
But you've played a number of hard-guy roles.
Well, nobody likes watching movies about soppy guys anyway.
What kind of guys?
Soppy guys. That's really the toughest guy to be in real life. You see, you watch a tough guy or a criminal or an exciting bloke who's doing stuff in a movie that you wish you had said or done in real life. Which, in real life, would probably get you locked up, killed, or just bring about nothing but badness. That's why in the movies, they live. The hero sows the seeds of his own destruction. And the ones that I'm drawn towards, when I'm watching a movie, are the ones like Tom Berenger in Platoon. I fucking love that guy. Horrendous dude. It's like watching a gorilla. Or wildlife. Dangerous. George Miller said something about charisma: "It's the mixture of charm and danger." It's compelling. Because here's somebody—Berenger's character—who says, "I'm doing it my way, no matter what the cost." And that's profound. I wish I could do that.
So you don't think you do that?
No. No. You know where that ends up. The cost, right? This is real life. That's movies. I'm terrified. I'm going back to fear. I need to keep my feet on the ground. It doesn't work if they're off the ground and it's all just fantasy. You have to have one foot in symbolic, one foot in reality, and one foot in fantasy. Fantasy, reality, and symbolic—three circles. And all those things are important to have in your life, I think. It doesn't work otherwise. Know your strengths, know your weaknesses. And the thing with the compelling nature of violence and danger is that it's so much nicer to watch it onscreen than to be in the room with that person. See, I trust that I'm not really that person. So I laugh when I hear about the myths, and I quite like them as well.
It is kind of a cool look.
It's great. When I turn up on a set and I have a moment when somebody second-guesses me just because of the way I look, I'm happy with that. It saves me from having to say anything. Because I know in my heart who I am. And I know that I mean no harm. You can decide whether you trust me or not, and the more charming I am and more honest about that, sometimes the more unnerving that can be for some people. I've seen it. Because you can fix somebody with a stare, and they don't really know whether you've been nice or not. It's like espionage—people smile when they hate you. And that's what the world is like sometimes. It's all relative truth. So, to them, I do what I do, which is basically to observe people and mimic them and do a show-and-tell onscreen. That's all I do. It's not rocket science. It's just camouflage
From the May 2015 issue
Plus, take a look at how Tom Hardy thinks Rose could've saved Jack in Titanic:
