I'm referring here to the capacitor plague era and premature failures, NOT sound quality.
The reason I ask is because yesterday I went over the 'lytic caps inside the PSU (SMPS) of an an approx. 10 year old Marantz UD7007 with an ESR-meter.
They all measured fine despite the fact that these were mostly no-name brands of Chinese make.
We're talking brands such as ZHN, KSD, Jicon, Lelon and TK (supposedly Japanese brand Toshin Kogyo). Of the latter, many of the fancier looking ones in the analogue board and some in the PSU were rebranded D & M (Denon & Marantz?). Only the Lelon brand was already familiar to me.
All measured fine, including the low-ESR types which would be the first to suffer problems.
Has the time come that we could say Chinese caps deserve a better reputation?
The reason I ask is because yesterday I went over the 'lytic caps inside the PSU (SMPS) of an an approx. 10 year old Marantz UD7007 with an ESR-meter.
They all measured fine despite the fact that these were mostly no-name brands of Chinese make.
We're talking brands such as ZHN, KSD, Jicon, Lelon and TK (supposedly Japanese brand Toshin Kogyo). Of the latter, many of the fancier looking ones in the analogue board and some in the PSU were rebranded D & M (Denon & Marantz?). Only the Lelon brand was already familiar to me.
All measured fine, including the low-ESR types which would be the first to suffer problems.
Has the time come that we could say Chinese caps deserve a better reputation?
Last edited:
I see what you mean if you're talking about counterfeits of known quality Western or Japanese brands.
Perhaps I should have added that I am talking about caps of legitimate Chinese manufacturers. Are these on par with the best Japan has to offer nowadays?
I doubt it. However, this doubt is a result of bias based on past performance of Chinese components. On the other hand, over the past decade or two, there has been evidence that Chinese manufacturers are absolutely capable of building quality products when given the specs and budget to do so. Perhaps some of the legitimate Chinese cap manufacturers are producing good quality parts now. On par with the best Japanese equivalents? That might be a stretch.
I understand your bias as I used to have it too, but what I found in lots of teardowns is shifting this bias. Failed stuff with thousands and thousands of hours on them, but the (Chinese) caps were still fine.
What also helps is that I seem to find more and more Chinese caps in industrial products in which you would have encountered only Japanese caps before. We're talking about the somewhat more well known brands like CapXon, Samxon, Lelon, Jamicon, Jianghay, Yageo and Aishi (the latter mainly in lighting).
What also helps is that I seem to find more and more Chinese caps in industrial products in which you would have encountered only Japanese caps before. We're talking about the somewhat more well known brands like CapXon, Samxon, Lelon, Jamicon, Jianghay, Yageo and Aishi (the latter mainly in lighting).
I think that original bad electrolyte problem is well over, but the problem with newer manufacturers is we don't have enough years of production to know how they age. Some of those original Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon and other well known parts have been around for decades and we know what to expect.
[Rant ON] Once upon a time somebody dreamed up an ESR tester. Simple circuit and gives you information on ESR. That's great if ESR is the parameter you care about. It's a crummy measure of capacitor condition. If you want to know what a capacitor is doing you need a traditional measurement of value, loss tangent and DC leakage current. It's easy enough to do with any old bridge, but for some reason people flock to ESR meters. High frequency ESR is of interest to switching power supply designers. It shouldn't be of interest to most everybody else. Many old caps weren't even specified for ESR. Dissipation factor (loss tangent) is typically measured at low frequencies and is usually what you should be interested in as a measure of cap condition. Most manufacturers consider 2X the DF spec as end of life for the part. I've seen caps fail on any one of the above measurements, yet still pass all the others. Thus, you need 'em all! [Rant OFf]
[Rant ON] Once upon a time somebody dreamed up an ESR tester. Simple circuit and gives you information on ESR. That's great if ESR is the parameter you care about. It's a crummy measure of capacitor condition. If you want to know what a capacitor is doing you need a traditional measurement of value, loss tangent and DC leakage current. It's easy enough to do with any old bridge, but for some reason people flock to ESR meters. High frequency ESR is of interest to switching power supply designers. It shouldn't be of interest to most everybody else. Many old caps weren't even specified for ESR. Dissipation factor (loss tangent) is typically measured at low frequencies and is usually what you should be interested in as a measure of cap condition. Most manufacturers consider 2X the DF spec as end of life for the part. I've seen caps fail on any one of the above measurements, yet still pass all the others. Thus, you need 'em all! [Rant OFf]
Thanks for the rant.
Given the fact that this seems to be an important factor, how would we measure dssipation factor?
Hope you see the contradiction here 😄
"Has the time come" (that means today) but your reference is 10 years old stuff 😎
It almost doesn't matter, as some distribution channels seem to have more fakes than real.
My personal view is places like ali, amazon, and ebay are so littered with fakes that I never get things like electrolytics from there. Counterfeiting is so bad I restrict my buying to places like Mouser and Digikey.
I don't agree this is a contradiciton as at least10 years needed to pass before being able to draw any conclusions of longevity.
It see it the same as Conrad wrote: "...but the problem with newer manufacturers is we don't have enough years of production to know how they age. Some of those original Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon and other well known parts have been around for decades and we know what to expect."
In regard to the Marantz piece that began the conversation: This is a quite different scenario.
An Asian manufacturer is using their local, known, vetted supply chains. I think it's safe to believe a company like Marantz avoids counterfeits.
(this is different from saying they always pick a nice, long life part)
An Asian manufacturer is using their local, known, vetted supply chains. I think it's safe to believe a company like Marantz avoids counterfeits.
(this is different from saying they always pick a nice, long life part)
They are still as nasty as ever, ask any TV repair technician; they practically make a living on those bloody things.
Last edited:
Counterfeit parts are a big problem, but when it comes to caps, the problem is not necessarily counterfeit parts; big name manufacturers still choose to use cheap caps in their products knowing very well that they will last long enough for the warranty to expire, but that will eventually fail in the long run.
I’ve also found product service life is two or three years.
I lost count of how many DVD and Blu-Ray players I went through, and currently use a Samsung TV I was able to repair. Bad capacitors and undersized heat sinks, that was so hot it would develop intermittent green lines on the screen and melted the thermal conductive adhesive. I plan to replace it with an OLED LG C4 or G4 if they get panning judder worked out.
Phone and tablet performance also degrades rather quickly; the batteries are done by year 4 after purchase and updates after 4 or 5 years, eventually turning useless.
I haven’t had a notebook computer battery last longer than 3 years post-2010, yet my usage habits haven’t changed.
As part of the planned obsolescence, the batteries are no longer user replaceable parts. We have a stream of previously-thin but now swelled lithium batteries sitting in the battery recycling bins at work.
I lost count of how many DVD and Blu-Ray players I went through, and currently use a Samsung TV I was able to repair. Bad capacitors and undersized heat sinks, that was so hot it would develop intermittent green lines on the screen and melted the thermal conductive adhesive. I plan to replace it with an OLED LG C4 or G4 if they get panning judder worked out.
Phone and tablet performance also degrades rather quickly; the batteries are done by year 4 after purchase and updates after 4 or 5 years, eventually turning useless.
I haven’t had a notebook computer battery last longer than 3 years post-2010, yet my usage habits haven’t changed.
As part of the planned obsolescence, the batteries are no longer user replaceable parts. We have a stream of previously-thin but now swelled lithium batteries sitting in the battery recycling bins at work.