Yamaha DX7 gives no sound

Hello again,

I just put in a new bridge, and these are the measurements I get now:
the ac side is putting in 24,9V AC on both red cables (I assume black is 0 then)
after the new bridge I am measuring 67V DC!!!
it also means I probably blew up all the voltage regulators again…

At this point I think it would be much wiser to try to get a whole new power-board
@Werner:
is that possible?

I did unsolder all the 4558 opamps and soldered an ic foot in, so I can change any broken 4558 very fast and easy.

I’m not putting the board in yet, I really think putting in a NEW power-supply is the way to go now.
any thoughts?

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24.9VAC on both sides:

24.9 x 1.414 = 35.2086

35.2086 - 1.4V (two diodes in the path) = 33.8086

measured across the bridge rectifier = 33.8086 x 2 = 67.6172

which is EXACTLY what you got - and IMHO is not right!!!

If your transformer is indeed made for 220VAC … 240VAC (you got 230VAC as I understand)

then here in Australia where we got 240VAC nominal but can get as high as 245VAC it would give a secondary of 71.67VDC - which is way way way too high.

So in my opinion - getting a new PSU will not fix anything … the problem must be the transformer …

We need an owner of a DX7 to measure the Secondary AC voltage for us to prove the point.

unfortunately the schematics don’t give any reference voltages at all

The only indication we got to assess that the current reading must be wrong is the capacitor values in the schematic (1000uF/35V) and they would bee to close to spec or even blow at 245VAC
image

Thank you very much for your reply.
I have been on vacation and now my work sort of starts to get on track after the lockdown.
However, I’m still keen on getting this old princes working again.
so I will have to look for a new transformer.

Are there any owners that could measure their output?

or maybe I can try to contact Yamaha to ask them what it was originally meant to be…

I did find an old thread here:


that says it should be 16V -16V and 6V with would make sense…

Hope this isn’t the case, but there’s no chance that the mains voltage selector is set wrong? or possibly has broken and shorted to a lower setting. If it was set to a lower voltage and you are putting 230v in, that would explain higher than normal voltages coming out of the secondary of the transformer.

THAT makes really sense and confirms what I was saying some time ago.

((16VAC X 1.414) - 1.4V) = 21.2VDC before the 7815 or 7915 15VDC regulator chip - which is in no way detrimental.

You have to look at the transformer first and foremost … disconnect it completely and measure its secondary winding values (AC) completely unloaded.

Hello,
Just wondering if you solved this power supply issue?
Can I ask, what brand is the 4700uf 16V capacitor? I don’t recognize the label.

I’m wondering if that capacitor is faulty, allowing too much leakage current, forcing the transformer to compensate by raising the voltage on the +15V circuit?

Hello midnightvisions,

No I did not solve this issue yet.
The project has been stalled for the moment because most of my work has started again.
I would very much like to finish this project, but I think I need a new transformer, but these are hard to find.
I was thinking of making my own transformer, but with my lack of knowledge I would have to do it by trial and error unless someone could tell me how much windings I shlould make on each connection.

anyway the 4700uf 16V is just a generic capacitor.
I was unable to find the same model here.
I could order one online for about 18 euro wich seems like way too expensive for just a capacitor.

I don’t believe its the transformer because they either work, or degrade voltages, they don’t increase voltage output. Capacitors do that.

To test the transformer winding you need this device;

It tests the quality of the transformer winding from the wire quality to the insulation. A High Q result means the winding and insulation are intact. A low Q result means the insulation is breaking down, or it has burnt windings, and losses are happening.

I think removing the main power supply caps, the two 1000uf and one 4700uf cap and see if removing them significantly drops the voltage levels and power draw. If you have an ESR meter, test the caps, Anatech makes the official ESR meter too.

Not all capacitors are the same. The most important rating in a cap is the ripple rating. This is how well the cap can withstand and correct fluctuations and disruptions in the power supply circuit.

If the caps are the problem, let me suggest these replacements; (the original 4700uf cap is obsolete)
Digikey 1000uf 35V P10876-ND Rated for 5000 hrs @ 105 degrees C.
Digikey 4700uf 25V 493-8602-ND Rated for 5000 hrs @ 105 degrees C

Hope this helps.

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Hello everybody!
I’m back and have been looking for a used tranformer
I did find one in France, they wanted 40 euro’s for it, but with shipping of 49 euros that would make almost 90 euro’s for used transformer.

I decided to wait.
the other day i found a amplifier-transformer for a couple of euro’s that gave me 2x16 volts.
it was however a bit bigger, so it just barely fits.

I will try to connect that to the powerboard. and see how I do with that.
I’m still short of the 5 volts, so I want to use a generic dc-powersupply and try and fit that in as well.
I was hoping, as soon as I connect it to the 5 volts-dc-side on the powerboard (after the bridge-rectifier) I hope I am still able to get all the rest working (as 1,1 volts is also derived from the 5-volts)
but there’s not much room left so I have so see if it fits…
does anyone know if 20watts will be sufficient? (5V4A)

I am now looking for the connectors that connect the power-board.
I’m not sure what they are called.
They look like Tamiya connectors, but the dimensions are a bit off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamiya_connector

does anyone know which ones I schould get?
As a last resort I can always change all of them of course, but they are immpossible to get off.
so I’d have to make them shorter (by cutting them) so I try to avoid that.

I would love to hear everybody’s thoughts.
Hope you are all well!

Greetings from Steven

Sorry, I don’t agree with your course of action. I don’t believe the transformer is at fault. See my earlier posts.

thank you for your reply, midnightvisions,

I have to ask: do you mean the capacitors on the DC board?
I did change those beforehand, but when I completely disconnect the dc-board and measure the voltage on the output of the transformer the voltage is already too high.
but maybe I don’t quite understand.

maybe you mean the capacitors that are on the power-switch-board?
that could be C10 or C11-14 (on the circuit diagram C1 and L1-4

C10 is brand new so that should be fine.
thank you for your suggestions for the capacitors, I’ll try if I can get a hold of those.

Yes replace the DC board electrolytic caps with quality capacitors like Rubycon as previously discussed.

But I see another problem.
Going back to post 65, there is a trimmer capacitor on the 5 volt line that is not suppose to be there, remove it and reconnect the ground pin of the 5V regulator back to ground. There should not be a trimmer capacitor in there, it was removed many years ago and is no longer on the schematic. I’m thinking the power supply has had so many problems, its fried some of the microchips.

What I don’t see is if you checked the voltage selector wiring. Having the -15 volt line read -24 might be the problem of a wire is in the wrong position.

But this has grown so large its hard to follow the problems. I’m going to suggest you find a certified technician to work on it. Your local music store should know who services the instruments. Growing up I was in your position and just made things worse on several projects by just poking around.

Sorry.

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Hello everyone,

I decided to have another look at the pre-transformer board. Desoldered certain parts that I was unsure gave a good connection, tried and tried again measuring for good connectivity.
I am now 100% sure it works fine.
then tried the 110V and 220V switch (which I had also de-soldered and re-soldered and checked) and checked to see if it was falsely wired. but no.
when I put the switch on 110V the transformer started humming (not good) and got 85V across.
I quickly put it back on 220V and got the same 24/24 volts (48V across) without any capacitors being attached in any way.
therefore I must conclude that there is something wrong with the transformer.
as I should be getting 32V across and 16v/16v (and of course 6V for the blue wires, where I am getting 11v)
So I will proceed my plan to change the transformer.

@midnightvisions, please do not think I don’t appreciate your help, but I just want to get the DX7 working again. I don’t need it to be historically correct. I hope I don’t offend you in any way…
Although I’ll try and get the right capacitors as soon as the lock-down is over…
for now I just need to get the right voltages to see if there are no damages to the rest of the instrument.

I’m in the southern USA and heartily concur with midnight. We got a name here for what you are doin. take it to a certified pro and quit what you are doin. Hopefully you took pictures and you can put it back EXACTLY as received with original problem, otherwise its goin to come with a mighty large repair bill…A DX7 is NOT the board a rookie should be" under its hood" with. If you’re not a rook, your described actions say differently and maybe you should try a different hobby… speakin of DX7’s I am tossin around the idea of a road trip ,from Atlanta to Charlotte for a $250 gen 1in excellent physical condition but no power/electrical unknown. Opinions? I think its still a high price for what could be a parts machine… Anybody in the market for a Korg micro X? Baddass lil monster for sure

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Hey Steven,

I happened across this forum thread on an image search, read the whole thing, and wondered if you ever got it resolved.

As for anyone that would criticize your attempts at fixing your own equipment, I’d tell them to go pound salt and continue learning. What a bonehead thing to do on a FORUM where people go to seek others’ HELP.

Power supplies like this aren’t rocket science, and I’m sure, at the very least, you can plug away and figure out what the issue is. Whether it is beyond fixing (custom chips, etc.) is another thing altogether, but in either case, it is satisfying to see anything like this to the bitter end, so long as you don’t mind the investment in time and parts.

In most consumer equipment (I am not familiar at all with this piece of equipment, full disclaimer, but it’s all the same in the power supply area), you have your line voltage (fused of course), it is switched on through a transformer primary, typically stepped-down to one or more secondaries, and then half- or full-wave rectified, at which point it is smoothed out and further regulated - typically by linear regulators (such as this), or pre-regulated with more efficient means in newer equipment.

After reading casually this entire thread, my gut reaction is that the line voltage is producing too high unregulated voltages for the linear regulators. The electrolytic replacement was a good start, they’re notoriously garbage after years and years of use and abuse. They fail either as an open, a short, or somewhere in between, all while suffering from their usual terrible tolerances. Great for low-frequency filtering, but that’s pretty much it.

Here’s what I’d suggest (I kept thinking of steps :wink: ):

-1. If you source your parts from China, Amazon, or eBay, or anywhere else in order to get a “good deal” redo all the work with parts from reputable sources. I have been in a Chinese factory and have seen under THEIR OWN X-ray machine that EVEN THE CHINESE are susceptible to fake parts of all kinds…specifically talking regulators in your case.

  1. Take one of your spare -15V regulators and apply voltage from a power supply, and see if it acts weird with overvoltage. If so, then that explains that. I’d also double-check that it is in the board correctly…but there is probably only one way to put it in if it’s on a heat sink. If it were me, I’d look at board traces and confirm in is in, out is out, and ground is ground, but I think you may have done that already. I doubt this is the problem. After testing THAT regulator, put THAT regulator INTO the synth.

  2. Disconnect the brain board and using your Variac, and with a meter, turn the voltage up until you get to around 28-30V unregulated (after the bridge rectifiers and before the linear 7815/7915 regulators). Should be just under what your line voltage is, maybe in the 195-205 VAC range if your line is 230 VAC. At this point, your regulators should read proper values. NOTE: My guess is that overcurrent downstream on the -15V rail keeps frying your 7915. They’re robust, but in my experience not as robust as +15V 7815’s, for whatever reason. Anyway, hopefully the voltages are right at this point.

  3. If the -15V is still being a pain, and you’re using known-good parts from a good source, try loading it with a 1K resistor. From your experiments above it sounded like the -15V regulator needed some load on its output “reads -15V with the board connected”, though this should not be the case. I agree with everyone that this is very odd; not much to see here, voltage in, -15V out…but…it isn’t…or wasn’t…very weird.

  4. At this point, I’m going to take the liberty to assume the regulators are outputting the proper values. Knowing that the 7815, 7915, and 7805’s are good for an amp (but I wouldn’t use them for over 3/4 A myself), we can do this experiment.
    3a. With a variable power supply and the ability to limit current output, turn the current knob to minimum and tune the supply to +5V and hook it up to the +5V rail on an UNPLUGGED and UNPOWERED synth board. Slowly begin turning the current knob up to allow more current out. If you have to keep turning the current knob to get to +5V and you get close to 1A when doing so (which would imply you still haven’t reached +5V), do not exceed 1A. Something may be bad on the +5V rail.
    3b. Repeat 3a with +15V rail.
    3c. Repeat 3a with -15V rail.

  5. My bet is that you either find something drawing excess current (spraying 70% isopropyl alcohol on everything and seeing which chip evaporates it off first is a poor man’s FLIR, and better than burning your finger), or something was damaged partially in the past by that high rail on -15V.

  6. Or, after you get the right regulator voltages with the Variac technique, everything runs happily and there isn’t distortion anymore. That would be awesome!

  7. At one point, I noticed that you had an image of the synth powered on and the LCD screen was visible. I noticed the first line of characters were all black squares, and the bottom was blank. If the board was in the system at that time, and you were doing a test run, that means the microcontroller is not running or is dead. Character LCDs default to first row all black squares, second row all blank, until they are initialized and are directed to display something by a microcontroller.

I hope this all made sense for you or for someone else that sees this post, and hopefully you haven’t thrown in the towel just yet. I’m sure we can get to the point where we at least know what the problem is, which would be cool.

Best regards,
Paul (Dallas, TX)

This was a very interesting read. We’ve gone from a unit that functioned without sound to a unit that is dead. Along the way, we’ve re-designed the power supply - it should be working as designed, and re-designing it probably created new problems.

The advice was a bit brutal, but it may have been the best offered. While a basic power supply is simple, it can also be lethal for someone without experience. While a certain level of ability is assumed on this board, I usually don’t offer advice if I don’t know someone’s background. Changing batteries or replacing a component is fine, but once we’ve begun working with a live power supply it may be time to consider alternatives.

All of the measurements were performed with a digital multimeter. That’s fine for basic work. But that meter doesn’t give you the full story. I prefer to use an analog meter or an oscilloscope so that I can see if there are any transients or ac ripple present.

From what I understand from this thread, I would recommend going back to the beginning: Start from the line cord. Check the 120/240 switch to be sure that we are connecting to the outer leads of the primary. The center tap will be connecting to the unused side of the switch. What is the voltage on the two secondaries?

I see two fuses in the 15v section. Test them with a meter, or replace them.

Remove all modifications.

Going further, I’d like to put my oscilloscope on the bridge rectifiers - both input and outputs. Are we seeing full-wave rectification? We should see some ripple at this point, but I would expect to see something around 20-23V on both sides of ground in the 15v section, and around 9-10v on the +5v section.

Provided that the voltages on the inputs to the voltage regulators are correct, the output voltages should be at the correct levels. If not, I would check that their ground lines are making proper connection with the center tap. I would also check the two electrolytic capacitors on the outputs.

Only after we see the proper voltages would I consider reconnecting the power supply to the remainder of the synth.

Never meant brutality, just trying to help.

The general message I was aiming to convey was “assume nothing and be methodical”

Great point about the rectifiers, could be damaged.

Good luck to whoever finds the thread on your endeavors.

Paul

I didn’t mean you. You made some very good points, and I think I’ve picked up a few techniques from you. I was referring to the advice that was given that he shouldn’t have been working on it. It would have been much easier if the keyboard used an external supply.

He said something about the negative voltage being larger than the positive voltage. This is making me suspect the rectifier or one of those fuses. It sounds like the secondary is not balanced about ground.

When/if he gets the power supply functioning correctly, then he will have to investigate the rest of the circuitry. Hopefully the excess drain will have protected the cpu.

I’ve never tried spraying 70% ipa - I used to have a can of component cooler which was a refrigerant. You simply sprayed at a component, and if it began working okay you’ve found your part. Haven’t seen a can of it in many years…